Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu! Gracie Jiu -Jitsu! Jiu Jitsu! MMA! UFC!
Link from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu
First of all welcome to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.com! The mission of this site is to promote the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and mixed martial arts through technology and an open format of social networking and user generated content. What does that mean? It means allowing users to gather in one central place to meet, discuss, post and promote our martial art! This is YOUR SITE, YOUR DOMAIN, LET'S MAKE IT ROCK!
On that note, I have been engaged in discussion with moderators at the wiki post for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu to get a link for BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com. Because our site is brand new and doesn't fit the traditional mold of current (what I call) static Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu sites, the moderators won't allow a link! I have to say I respect their time and energy that they devote to moderating the wiki page, but I do feel they are missing the point. That said, here are transcripts from our conversations which can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu:
Non-notable links
Hi. There are a couple of non-notable links that are always brought back by some unregistered user. These links to Forums or personal websites not symmetrically related to BJJ and as such are not proper links for the External links section. It would be nice if those unregistered users refrain from putting the links back because these reverts are a big load to wikipedia servers and only makes the article about BJJ looks unprofessional and unencyclopedic. Its completely detrimental to the sport we love. This article is already permeated with POVs and unsourced material, which is hard to maintain or correct, but the external links are fairly easy to purge unless someone insists in doing the wrong thing over and over again as these unregistered users are doing right now. They are just disrupting the process of making the BJJ a better article. Loudenvier 19:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
>>Again, here I am trying to get dialogue going so as not to be considered a spammer by posting our site, BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com only to be removed. Understandably, the site is still new, however it is non-commercial (yes a few adsense adds that HOPEFULLY may offset some of the hosting, development charges) and is designed so that people will be able to create profiles, add their own content (ie: videos and photos, etc.) and basically be allowed to engage other fans of BJJ and MMA without the need to go through huge sites like MySpace or YouTube and filter through all the garbage to get to good content. We have lots of plans to add to the site, ie; FREE, NON-Commercial professional technique videos section, a section where people can buy and sell their own equipment, again FREE, Non-commercial and other ideas hopefully that will come from the community itself. However, we'd like to have a decent sized user base before spending $$ on these sections. So can you please leave this discussion up for review and let me know how I can communicate with you to allow the site to be place in its proper section. Thanks!
If you want to argue the principle then discus it on the central talk page for WP:EL, there are lots of sites that do accept advertising, this isn't one. --Nate1481 14:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
>>Thanks for the response. I'm not talking in principle, I'm talking about this being a site for the BJJ community. Can you be specific as to what part of the site doesn't qualify for linking ANYWHERE on this wikipedia page and perhaps we can try to modify it? My friend, this is NOT a money making commercial site. Again thanks for the dialogue. I might add that perhaps a different section or category on this wikipedia page would be appropriate. BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com, as the name implies is a site for BJJ practioners by BJJ practitioners. It is not a forum site, it is not a commercial site. In fact there is no site that I am aware of that will serve the community as this site will. Additionally, I am the moderator of the site and I intend on only allowing good quality content whether videos, photos, dialogue, etc. that enhances OUR martial art, even at the expense of the site growing slowly. Please reconsider your deleteion of the site and consider allowing a link under a current category or perhaps a new category. Not doing so, I really think it is a disservice to the BJJ community. Thanks.
It comes down to notability, i.e. is your site more relevant and important than any other if so why? If there is no standard then the external links section would be longer than the article. It may well be a good site but the question is will it improve the article, there are already lost of links to good sites --Nate1481 15:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Your site, despite being good, should only be linked from wikipedia article if it provides crucial information about BJJ that cannot be included in the article itself. If info from your site is included in the article, then it will be already referenced and linked so you will not need to include it in the External links section. The best way to have your site listed in a wikipedia article is to use unique information from it on the article itself and citing it as source. For example, if you perform an interview with Hélio Gracie you can quote it in the BJJ article and cite your site as source. This way we keep the articles in a encyclopedic tone and improve it rather than advertise related sites. Loudenvier 15:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
>>Thanks also for the comment and compliment. However, It's YOUR SITE, not mine! Already, with 5 videos, there are techniques being shown that would qualify for a link in the techniques section. There is a history video, narrated by Rorion that would qualify for the history section. And this is with 3 members and all content uploaded by me in a couple days time!!! Please allow it to enhance our beloved sport and allow it a link, not for my benefit, not for your benefit, but for the benefit of Brazilain Jiu-Jitsu! can I get an AMEN....!
>>See this is what's great about wiki-we can discuss it. First, what differentiates BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com and makes it notable is that it is not MY site in asmuch as this page is not YOUR site. They are both open platforms to disseminate BJJ in all its context. Most BJJ sites, if not all, are based on a static model in that someone controls what content (ie; technique videos, etc.) that are posted and what are not. Just like initially nobody thought wikipedia would work because most thought it would be just a lot of junk and spam content and you needed a closed model like encyclopedia Brittanica where so called "experts" decided what content to disseminate, here we are right now deciding in a Socratic fashion what's best for this page and the BJJ community! Open model works yet both models serve their purpose. The closed model is being done by every BJJ site. The open model is not. I think that BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com will serve the same purpose as this wiki page and wikipedia in general to benefit the community by providing an open platform to allow the dissemination of BJJ information, with a heavy emphasis on video techniques and content.
As an example, I am a 4 stripe Blue belt, training for 4+ yrs and with a decent guard. I was filtering through all kinds of garbage on YouTube and came across and uploaded 5 finishing techniques from Jean Jacques Machado to the BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com site. One technique showed a normal armbar from the guard to a switch to the other arm armbar. I never saw this technique before! I showed the move to our brown belt instructor, who also admittedly had not seen it. That's the point! In a closed system site like EVERY other BJJ site, a technique like this could have been easily missed and never disseminated. In an open platform, it was uploaded to BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com and disseminated to all the practitioners instantly! Can you imagine how many excellent, valid techniques are floating around by BJJ practitioners without names like Machado! Where is the open platform and site to disseminate this? On BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com, a technique can be user rated, so if it is a junk technique, it is either deleted or ranks low at the end of the scale. It is this type of open ended model, JUST LIKE WIKI PLATFORM, that utilizes technology to perpetuate and improve our sport and THIS is what differentiates the site and makes it NOTABLE. And that is why I think it has a valid place on this page. It is not that it is more important, relevant, etc. than any other site, it is a different context. What will differentiate the site will be the quality of the content provided by users and moderated by users, just like this wiki page, and yes this will take some time and some trust and some exposure from legitimate links such as this. Give it a chance, a link, and some time and then let's look back in 1 month, 6 months, whatever and see! Thanks!
This site sounds good to me. Still it isn't eligible for inclusion in External links as it can be labeled as SPAM. It's totally subjective that your site "differentiates" from others. That's why the WP:EL policy has to be stringent or else any site would probably be eligible as External links. This is an encyclopedic article after all, not advertisement. Links to forums, community-like sites, etc should be avoided (but are not prohibited). If your site had unanimous notoriety among BJJers then it would probably be allowed here, but even that is hard to objectively define. In the end, a google search for BJJ should bring your site as top-ranked pages when it start to be a phenomenon (if it lives up to the description you made, man, it will be really great!). Read the WP:EL there are better reasonings there about why this External links policy has to be so stringent. Abuse would surely happen if that wasn't the case. For example, in the Boxer article we editors implemented a policy not to allow any External link that wasn't a nationally recognized club, society or rescue about the Boxer dog. This way we prevented SPAM. There are good sites in the reference section which served as sources for the article, but not a single External link that could be classified as SPAM. Regards. Loudenvier 17:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
>>I see your point (I tap:)) but at least allow this discussion to remain so others may see my point and comment, and perhaps you may reconsider. Or at least allow it to be included under a different heading after some more discourse by others. Or perhaps a suitable link from within an article (ie; a link to the history of Jiu-Jitsu video narrated by Rorion gracie- http://www.brazilianjiu-jitsu.com/video/video/show?id=528245:Video:342, or a specific technique video that you or other users like, ie: the machado video I described earlier-http://www.brazilianjiu-jitsu.com/video/video/show?id=528245:Video:182). I don't want to mess with your work, that's why I'll leave that up to you. Thanks again and keep up the good work! (And figure a way to get BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com site referenced here).
On that note, I have been engaged in discussion with moderators at the wiki post for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu to get a link for BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com. Because our site is brand new and doesn't fit the traditional mold of current (what I call) static Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu sites, the moderators won't allow a link! I have to say I respect their time and energy that they devote to moderating the wiki page, but I do feel they are missing the point. That said, here are transcripts from our conversations which can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu:
Non-notable links
Hi. There are a couple of non-notable links that are always brought back by some unregistered user. These links to Forums or personal websites not symmetrically related to BJJ and as such are not proper links for the External links section. It would be nice if those unregistered users refrain from putting the links back because these reverts are a big load to wikipedia servers and only makes the article about BJJ looks unprofessional and unencyclopedic. Its completely detrimental to the sport we love. This article is already permeated with POVs and unsourced material, which is hard to maintain or correct, but the external links are fairly easy to purge unless someone insists in doing the wrong thing over and over again as these unregistered users are doing right now. They are just disrupting the process of making the BJJ a better article. Loudenvier 19:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
>>Again, here I am trying to get dialogue going so as not to be considered a spammer by posting our site, BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com only to be removed. Understandably, the site is still new, however it is non-commercial (yes a few adsense adds that HOPEFULLY may offset some of the hosting, development charges) and is designed so that people will be able to create profiles, add their own content (ie: videos and photos, etc.) and basically be allowed to engage other fans of BJJ and MMA without the need to go through huge sites like MySpace or YouTube and filter through all the garbage to get to good content. We have lots of plans to add to the site, ie; FREE, NON-Commercial professional technique videos section, a section where people can buy and sell their own equipment, again FREE, Non-commercial and other ideas hopefully that will come from the community itself. However, we'd like to have a decent sized user base before spending $$ on these sections. So can you please leave this discussion up for review and let me know how I can communicate with you to allow the site to be place in its proper section. Thanks!
If you want to argue the principle then discus it on the central talk page for WP:EL, there are lots of sites that do accept advertising, this isn't one. --Nate1481 14:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
>>Thanks for the response. I'm not talking in principle, I'm talking about this being a site for the BJJ community. Can you be specific as to what part of the site doesn't qualify for linking ANYWHERE on this wikipedia page and perhaps we can try to modify it? My friend, this is NOT a money making commercial site. Again thanks for the dialogue. I might add that perhaps a different section or category on this wikipedia page would be appropriate. BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com, as the name implies is a site for BJJ practioners by BJJ practitioners. It is not a forum site, it is not a commercial site. In fact there is no site that I am aware of that will serve the community as this site will. Additionally, I am the moderator of the site and I intend on only allowing good quality content whether videos, photos, dialogue, etc. that enhances OUR martial art, even at the expense of the site growing slowly. Please reconsider your deleteion of the site and consider allowing a link under a current category or perhaps a new category. Not doing so, I really think it is a disservice to the BJJ community. Thanks.
It comes down to notability, i.e. is your site more relevant and important than any other if so why? If there is no standard then the external links section would be longer than the article. It may well be a good site but the question is will it improve the article, there are already lost of links to good sites --Nate1481 15:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Your site, despite being good, should only be linked from wikipedia article if it provides crucial information about BJJ that cannot be included in the article itself. If info from your site is included in the article, then it will be already referenced and linked so you will not need to include it in the External links section. The best way to have your site listed in a wikipedia article is to use unique information from it on the article itself and citing it as source. For example, if you perform an interview with Hélio Gracie you can quote it in the BJJ article and cite your site as source. This way we keep the articles in a encyclopedic tone and improve it rather than advertise related sites. Loudenvier 15:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
>>Thanks also for the comment and compliment. However, It's YOUR SITE, not mine! Already, with 5 videos, there are techniques being shown that would qualify for a link in the techniques section. There is a history video, narrated by Rorion that would qualify for the history section. And this is with 3 members and all content uploaded by me in a couple days time!!! Please allow it to enhance our beloved sport and allow it a link, not for my benefit, not for your benefit, but for the benefit of Brazilain Jiu-Jitsu! can I get an AMEN....!
>>See this is what's great about wiki-we can discuss it. First, what differentiates BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com and makes it notable is that it is not MY site in asmuch as this page is not YOUR site. They are both open platforms to disseminate BJJ in all its context. Most BJJ sites, if not all, are based on a static model in that someone controls what content (ie; technique videos, etc.) that are posted and what are not. Just like initially nobody thought wikipedia would work because most thought it would be just a lot of junk and spam content and you needed a closed model like encyclopedia Brittanica where so called "experts" decided what content to disseminate, here we are right now deciding in a Socratic fashion what's best for this page and the BJJ community! Open model works yet both models serve their purpose. The closed model is being done by every BJJ site. The open model is not. I think that BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com will serve the same purpose as this wiki page and wikipedia in general to benefit the community by providing an open platform to allow the dissemination of BJJ information, with a heavy emphasis on video techniques and content.
As an example, I am a 4 stripe Blue belt, training for 4+ yrs and with a decent guard. I was filtering through all kinds of garbage on YouTube and came across and uploaded 5 finishing techniques from Jean Jacques Machado to the BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com site. One technique showed a normal armbar from the guard to a switch to the other arm armbar. I never saw this technique before! I showed the move to our brown belt instructor, who also admittedly had not seen it. That's the point! In a closed system site like EVERY other BJJ site, a technique like this could have been easily missed and never disseminated. In an open platform, it was uploaded to BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com and disseminated to all the practitioners instantly! Can you imagine how many excellent, valid techniques are floating around by BJJ practitioners without names like Machado! Where is the open platform and site to disseminate this? On BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com, a technique can be user rated, so if it is a junk technique, it is either deleted or ranks low at the end of the scale. It is this type of open ended model, JUST LIKE WIKI PLATFORM, that utilizes technology to perpetuate and improve our sport and THIS is what differentiates the site and makes it NOTABLE. And that is why I think it has a valid place on this page. It is not that it is more important, relevant, etc. than any other site, it is a different context. What will differentiate the site will be the quality of the content provided by users and moderated by users, just like this wiki page, and yes this will take some time and some trust and some exposure from legitimate links such as this. Give it a chance, a link, and some time and then let's look back in 1 month, 6 months, whatever and see! Thanks!
This site sounds good to me. Still it isn't eligible for inclusion in External links as it can be labeled as SPAM. It's totally subjective that your site "differentiates" from others. That's why the WP:EL policy has to be stringent or else any site would probably be eligible as External links. This is an encyclopedic article after all, not advertisement. Links to forums, community-like sites, etc should be avoided (but are not prohibited). If your site had unanimous notoriety among BJJers then it would probably be allowed here, but even that is hard to objectively define. In the end, a google search for BJJ should bring your site as top-ranked pages when it start to be a phenomenon (if it lives up to the description you made, man, it will be really great!). Read the WP:EL there are better reasonings there about why this External links policy has to be so stringent. Abuse would surely happen if that wasn't the case. For example, in the Boxer article we editors implemented a policy not to allow any External link that wasn't a nationally recognized club, society or rescue about the Boxer dog. This way we prevented SPAM. There are good sites in the reference section which served as sources for the article, but not a single External link that could be classified as SPAM. Regards. Loudenvier 17:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
>>I see your point (I tap:)) but at least allow this discussion to remain so others may see my point and comment, and perhaps you may reconsider. Or at least allow it to be included under a different heading after some more discourse by others. Or perhaps a suitable link from within an article (ie; a link to the history of Jiu-Jitsu video narrated by Rorion gracie- http://www.brazilianjiu-jitsu.com/video/video/show?id=528245:Video:342, or a specific technique video that you or other users like, ie: the machado video I described earlier-http://www.brazilianjiu-jitsu.com/video/video/show?id=528245:Video:182). I don't want to mess with your work, that's why I'll leave that up to you. Thanks again and keep up the good work! (And figure a way to get BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com site referenced here).
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